David Horsager: 6 ways to measure trust, close the gaps and confidently look back on your competition

Well, welcome everybody. This is another episode of the science of C X. I'm Steve Pappas, your host and today we have a guest that's going to talk to us about why trust is so important, especially in our businesses and things that we need to address and things that we need to solve for around trust. Before I go on any further, let's welcome David Horsager from the Green room and David comes to us from the trust edge dot com company and he's a well-known speaker. So welcome David, Thanks for joining us on the show today. Absolutely.

Thank you Steve. This is great. So, I've been looking forward to this because this is an area that as we talk about customer experience, it is just so central to the thought of why experiences are better and trust is one we haven't tackled yet. So I'm really glad that we're going to have that discussion today. But let me give folks a little bit about your bio, David horse Hagar. Is the CEO of Trust Edge Leadership Institute, Trust expert in residence at High Point University and Wall Street Journal best-selling author of the Trust Edge.

And we're going to talk about his book in a little bit too. David has advised leaders and delivered life changing presentations on six continents with audiences ranging from FedEx, Toyota mitt and global governments all the way to the New York Yankees and the Department of Homeland Security. His new book, trusted leader eight pillars that drive results really describes how to create a companywide foundation of trust. At the end of the show, we'll tell you how to get more information and where to find David online so you can get a little more familiar with this entire issue, as well as the concepts that David has in his book David, I've got so much to ask you and I hope you're buckled in because we've got a lot to talk about.

And I guess what we need to do first is we need to really define trust because I have a feel like people out there, they think they know what it is, but they're probably not thinking about it in the right way and maybe we should just define that first and then we'll go into why it's so important for us. Well, I'll tell you what that's interesting because even when I start my grad work almost two decades ago, I thought I know it all about. So trust is just integrity.

Well not, you also have to have competency. I might trust you to watch my kids in the ball game but not give me a root canal and you might, oh, it's just transparency and that's the business for a decade. Just vulnerability is trust. But that's not true either. You got kids who are so transparent on social media. I don't trust him for a second. You also have to be confidential. So, we define it this way out of the institute and even back to my grad work, Trust is a confident belief in a person product or an organization and when I can confidently believe in you, everything changes.

And we found it was the leading indicator of everything from leadership to sales interesting. Many people have misconceptions and I think you hit the nail on the head there that they look at it from only one perspective or what they think trust is. But I think we have to go a little deeper because the whole concept of addressing trust is missing. Well at least in the business models that we've looked at in a lot of the customer experience models as well as journeys. Where does trust show up?

I don't see it in too many places. That's the big problem. We've been arguing for a long time. Great places to work. Finally got it right. They took engagement. Now put 60% of the number one questions and metrics to do a trust. I believe exactly right, customer service, customer loyalty, a bed net promoter score. You know, that's a customer question is all about referrals. And in fact, the research shows, referrals don't get referrals. The only way to get more referrals is increased trust. So we have to deal with this trust issue.

That's the reason I wrote trusted leader is people weren't dealing with the root issues. My work I'll let people know I set up before, not a leadership issue. The only reason I follow leader or not as trust. It's not a marketing issue. The only reason to amplify marketing is increased trust in the message. It's not a learning issue. The only way to increase learning in the classroom has increased trust in the teacher of the content or the psychological safety trust the room, you're going to get more innovation has increased trust in the teams of the share ideas.

That's the same with customer experience. Trust is where that loyalty referrals engagement all go up. In fact you don't drive engagement with engagement. You have to increase trust. You know you talk about science one of our six ways we measure trust the enterprise trust index and we use it you know and everything from global pharmaceuticals to universities and global governments and that that would compete with some engagement assessments but ours measures trust and engagement which actually helps you get more engagement. So we have to deal with this trust issue and lack of trust always affects the bottom line.

It's the greatest expense of every organization. And so absolutely at the center of CX is Trust and there's ways to build it. It got me thinking because we recently had gym teacher on from heart of the customer. And Jim's firm does a lot of research and they do a lot of analysis to but they do it at the corporate level. So they talked to businesses all around the world and they've done hundreds and hundreds of interviews just in the last year during Covid and this year too. And it's kind of funny because I noticed in some of the research that they look at the companies that look for emotion.

So, they look for various emotions, not all emotions, They look for one emotion. And it's interesting when you see certain top brands, we won't go into them, they look into their conversations. They do all their analysis on the calls coming in as well as everything else. And some of the top brands they're looking for trust. The emotion of trust is what they're going for. Others are going for various other things, confidence and various things. But there are a few there that I was looking at and it is trust that they search for in the voice of the customer.

So, you're right on the money. And I think that is a perfect thing. Let's talk about where the problems lie more. Because is this a leadership problem or does it lie someplace else as to why companies don't necessarily have that trust in the brands that they're working with? Well, it can lie anywhere, but it does hang on Leadership. That's why I wrote that. trusted leader is the book and it's just like whether it's an individual, an organization or a leading brand, it all comes down to this framework.

These eight, I call them pillars in the book, but they came out of the research and have been revalidated by outside universities. That trust is built by these eight, you said something earlier about what's the core issue and as an example here, I said already, it's not engagement issue or referral issue, it's also never a communication issue. People think it's a communication issue, it never is, it's one of these eight. So as an example, the first pillars, clarity, people trust the clear, they mistrust or distrust the ambiguous or the overly complex.

The second pillar is compassion, we trust those that care beyond themselves. So compassionate communication is trusted, hateful communication is not so when they just say communication, engagement, referrals leadership, they're not getting to the core issue and when they can define them against these eight, they actually solve the real issue. So, the eight pillars from your perspective are the things that need to be addressed always and no ego about it. Actually, the research and work on six continents with everything from global governments, the pro sports teams to corruption issues.

It doesn't mean I know how to do everything and it doesn't mean it's easy and it certainly doesn't mean I'm a consultant like I know it all it just is that we found that when you can define it against these eight you solve the real issue and most people don't, they call it something else so they don't get to the core issue. We've used these eight, I can still remember we used in the company and they said that helped us drive attrition down by $2 to $4 million in nine months.

Oh, that helped us triple sales in 90 days. Oh that help us gain market share. They actually started to solve the real issue whatever that is from C. X. To leadership to whatever. Even in the quotient world, I would say EQ is good. That's part of trust. I. Q. Is good. TQ is what you need. Trust quotient. I mean it's like you've got to put a Q. And I. Q. Together and add character to it and you end up with this trust quotation that really gives you the customer experience you want and that's people that trust.

You come back tell others pay more. I like the way in the book you kind of go through the eight pillars because you really give the early warning signals or the symptoms if you will of which pillars are having problems or their week in your organization and then how to strengthen them. So, I like the fact that you handle both sides of the coin, you know, one being, how do you recognize it? Because some of us think we're very trustworthy. Some of us think our businesses take on the personality of the person at the top that's driving it and that they're trustworthy.

However, I don't think there ever breaking down the trust equation into the components that you're talking about. And maybe it be worthwhile for us to kind of look at those eight quickly if we can just so people are well aware of what the eight are. So, there's eight pillars and by the way, we have six different ways. We used these eight to measure against them, whether you're an independent leader or overall organization. So each of the pillars, by the way, as you said, has counter forces. So, we might look at those symptoms or counter forces and organizations.

So, I'll try to do them quickly. The challenges I want this to be conversational. And the problem is I can talk about each one for a day, so here we go. I'll give context. Number one is clarity. People trust the clear. They mistrust their distrust the ambiguous or the overly complex. Many people think they're clear when they're not. Number two is compassion. We trust those that care beyond themselves. It's hard to be accountable to someone or follow some, we don't believe cares at all beyond themselves, even if they don't care about us.

By the way, if they care about someone or something beyond themselves, we have something Going number three as character. We trust those that do what's right or what's easy. There's a whole part in this one in organizations where we see people incentivized against the character, they say they want to have. So, it's both independent leaders and structural as far as character. I mean, you can think of the work we do in East Africa, you've got police officers are incentivized to take bribes and yet they want to stop bribery, which is costing the GDP.

So, you've got to change the incentive system. If you want to change the character in some cases, Number four is competency. We trust those that stay fresh and relevant and capable. This is the reason I might trust you Steve to take my kids to the ball game. You've got character, you've got compassion. Doesn't mean I'll trust you to give me a root canal because of competency and the next pillars, commitment. We trust those that stay committed in the face of adversity. You think of people have left a legacy in your life for history, mom, dad, martin, Luther, King Gandhi, Jesus Mandela Joan of Arc.

Those are people who are committed to something beyond themselves. Next pillars connection, they really connect and collaborate. We talked about counter forces in a company. If I see silo going, I know I've got a counterforce to this pillar connection. Next pillars contribution. These are C words for clarity. But let me tell you that doesn't mean it's some kind of cheesy motivational book that starts with C. If they all stand for research funnel and the number one word under this funnel would be results. We trust those that contribute results.

You can't just have compassion character and not contribute the results expected paper or asked for the final pillars consistency. The only way to build a brand is consistency. The only way to build a reputation as a human is consistency by the way your trusted for whatever you do consistently. If you're late all the time, I will. In fact, trust you to be late. So consistency matters. That's the eight in a brief. I think that that list of pillars probably just woke a bunch of people up because there's a lot of things there that I don't think any organization internalizes.

I don't think that the leadership team ever sits around in the conference room over a cup of coffee and thinks about these areas. So, you talk about trust as an asset. How can people understand trust being the acid? I mean, everybody thinks about goodwill when they're selling their business or their buying a business, but they don't necessarily think of trust as an acid. And I guess there's the economic side of trust that maybe we should talk about. Well, you can think of liability is the biggest risk of aboard I'm working on or with is losing trust and it costs immensely.

I mean, you can think of the liability of a lack of trust for the catholic church, which is $4 billion in about four years when they lost a certain type of trust. You can think of the cost of a lack of trust in Wells Fargo was incentivizing salespeople in a certain way and it cost billions very simply what would really stand for? A lack of trust? A lock would be a good example. I don't trust you. So I put a lock on the gate. So, what is the cost?

Well, one cost is money. I got to buy the lock. The biggest cost though is time now. I've got to open it. so that just changed things. I've got to take time or think of someone you trust that you write a text to boom it's done now write a text to someone you don't trust. How long does that take? Oh how they going to take this, how they going to take that forever more. So, what I found even in my original research and this is page 20 of my first book, Trust Edge.

And that just shows how when trust increased it affected the leading indicators over anything else like retention, going up time to market, going down costs going down in my first book really looked at the cost of a lack of trust and how when you increase trust, you affected the expense ratio enormously. And so that's kind of like what trust is such an amazing asset because Asset has value from biggest financial institutions to a relationship with your spouse, partner or friend. It's an immense asset. And once you have it, if it's really strong, you can even overcome some barriers.

I mean, you look at southwest, they were 33 years top of the list, they made a massive mistake. Any other airline would have been flayed by the press, but they apologized, they did some things differently and they went right back to number one because they've been so consistently trusted and you can weather some storms of imperfection with high trust. Some of those examples there almost obvious to be centered around a trust issue that the consumers have lost trust in something. But I think there are probably a lot of companies out there that it's not as evident, it's not on the surface that the consumer doesn't trust them.

You know, there could be other companies out there and I can think of some maybe utilities, maybe cable companies, things like that, that I just think that, well, I just might not feel that they're going to be trusted to do the job right. You know, I've had issues with some things and some vendors and it's 34 times that a technician comes out or something has to be done. I lose that trust. But sometimes they're just too big and that's it. They were monopoly. That's it, right there. The only option you have and you still want it.

So you still trust them. So, in my area, I'm way out from the twin cities, Minneapolis, St Paul, we have a little hobby farm out on the lake. Kind of out of the ways, we really only have one good option at fast internet. So as much as there are terrible option, they're the best option. So, we in fact, do trust them the most to give us the high speed of internet, even though they're not great. And that's the same with you in a monopoly of a different situation.

It's like you're in the desert, you're just dying of thirst if you had the option of Aquafina and whatever else you would take that option. But if at the end of the day you're going to die unless you drink your own pee, you just might do it. So, it's like your options get worse. But it's the most trusted to live. If there's any competition, you only win on trust. In fact, you know, we had a political year this year. If we go back a little bit, I mean as far as who you vote for is who you most trust to do the most for you.

So, the most people most trusted this person, whoever it is in any election. I'm not talking about presidential. There's a lot of different elections this year. So, the person that one always want on trust, you know, as far as popular elections where it was by the vote. Do you ever look at certain either professions or industries? I mean, I can think of some professions that we don't necessarily Trust that the bill is right. I mean there are unscrupulous. You see them on Dateline, you see them all, you know, mechanics that there's 19 different quotes when they bring the same car in.

They've been to other professions like dentistry or lawyers or something. And the bills just magically appear. I had, it happened to me last week and all of a sudden it was $400 more. Nobody ever said anything Along the way, I had the print out and I said, well how is it? $400 more? And they said, oh, well, you needed this and this and this. And I said, nobody ever came to tell me that. Is there a reason why you didn't do that? And I used the term, do you want me not to trust you the next time?

So, I guess there are some professions in some industries that were almost forced to trust because we don't know enough exactly. The reason if you don't understand how to deal with the car, then you don't have anything to go against. I'll tell you what kind of a fun anomaly though is attorneys as a whole. People say, I don't trust attorneys. I hate attorneys and yet our attorney, we highly trust in many cases. So It's kind of a funny one. Let's, instead of just looking at the negative on this issue with mechanics, how do people win?

I know of a mechanic as an example that is incredibly successful. An incredibly referred and turns people away because he's so busy, doesn't spend any money on marketing or sales. His shop is kind of a hidden away place with barely assigned to find the dirt driveway, but it's actually a really nice shop you get in there. It's like boy, a few things that make this guy trusted. It's a really clean shop. It's like when you see it, wow, he takes care of that. Maybe he'll take care of my this, that's one thing.

Number two, he educates everybody's like, so here's what's happening here. It's this, this and this, he pauses, takes the time, he keeps increasing his fees and everybody says, you got to go to this guy, you got to go this side. So, he's so backed up six months out. People will even leave some big expensive vehicle there because it's like he explained, here's what's going on. So, if you don't want to do it, it's okay, this is what I can do. But he explains that and he gets in essence paid more, but a super clear.

So these people they know we don't understand what's under our car, if they would pause and be clear, this happened with a company in the real estate industry. Many people, I can tell you personally, my first house that I bought 20 something years old, I was scared to death. You're signing your life away, right? And they made me feel like a fool because I had to sign what 100 piece of paper and I didn't understand it. And so, I ask questions, I just kind of pushed me through it like I'm an idiot if I don't just sign, I never went back to that person and we did a study later that found if in your first house the second time.

Oh yeah, it's just you're not used to it, whatever. I just signed my life away. I don't care. But in the first time if the mortgage broker and the realtor would pause, take extra time to explain everything as slow as that person wants to get business again. The next time they buy a house clarity. I guess what our listeners are probably thinking about is one. How do you recognize that there was a trust issue within the organization? One of the measurements. And I guess maybe then how do we measure how good or how bad the trust issue is?

And then maybe we could talk about, how do we make it better? Well, I'm not here to sell things. I'll just tell you what we do. We measure trust and we build diagnostics for this and we believe it's the most important thing you measure. So you can do it by just taking the eight pillars and looking like how are we doing like one out of 10 and if you want to spend the money or anything else? No problem. Look at those eight and just think one out of 10, How we doing on each of these?

I mean let's take a marketing message. Is it clear? Does it show compassion for them? Does it connect? Is it giving the results? Is it consistent? You know, I can go through the eight. I can just think so that's the easy way. But the six ways we would do it that are validated vetted. The top would be a big enterprise Trust index 72 questions. We use this on big organizations. It's using my grad work with 30 years of accent your data that is benchmark and all that and we can measure trust and engagement close gaps.

We've done gaps where we've shown one little point and saved a million dollars in a day for an organization. So that's measuring trust in closing gaps. Then we come down to trust history 65 questions for each behavior. You have a self-assessment, the three questions for each behavior. We have a consultative diagnostic. It's kind of a conversational assessment. We have a team's assessment. All this is online and you can measure and see what's highest and lowest and close gaps. By the way, I should say this right here, let's give away something.

If they email let's give away the diagnostic. Our coaches and consultants use the one page. This would be the simplest like the one page. Either self-assessment or the conversational diagnostic. You can think about three questions under each of the eight pills for your company and just give yourself a self-rating of 1-10. And that might be helpful for people to get thinking. But I'll give you one that's incredibly valuable and simple. It's our customer assessment. So that assessment is just five questions that dr trust and referrals.

So the problem with a net promoter score which is by the way, white paper, good study that asked the questions would you refer us or not? That's important. The problem is the research on our side kept showing you don't get referrals with referrals. You have to increase trust to get more referrals. So we took and said Okay what actually gets those? So we have these five questions that people can put it on the bottom of Jimmy John's coupon and everybody can reply back or you can send it to 5000 people and you can see exactly where your gap is.

Of these five or multitude and then you can actually deal with the issue. And it's always a trust issue. So that would be a way we measure consumer or customer trust. So basically, we measure outside inside most of our work is dealing with inside the company from a leader all the way up to the whole organization like an enterprise. And the out facing one is how we measure customer trust, which is the most important thing. You can measure you know this; I think we talked about this before is that so many people, the biggest thing they could know to do better is listen to their customers and they don't have a way to do it.

And if they just listen, they would find out exactly what to do to keep them or get more of them. And that assessment helps in that regard, That would be great. We can obviously put things in show notes to that make a lot of sense because companies are out there, they're gathering information. Everybody we talked to, they've got some kind of survey system or model. They've got voice of the customer. They're gathering lots of data. I don't know whether or not there's a trust component to what they're asking.

And I think that's an important piece is that that should be included in pretty much anything you do. So I think when we get the customer trust measurement, that might be something that we exposed to our folks to say, hey, you know, you might want to put this in. If you're gathering data anyway, that will be a very telling piece of information that you need. Absolutely. And just to be clear, so I'm not over promising wrong things. We can give you the self-assessment for leaders. So it can give you the conversational diagnostic, the customer trust assessment we call it.

The trusted customer is an online tool that we would have to give you access to your people from here. But I'll give you the other two that we actually do charge for free. But the customer one, you're using an online tool, you have to send this to your customers and get the data back. So that would have to run from here. That makes perfect sense. And I think some people will probably take you up on that too because this is an issue that I think a lot of people are dealing with because we had this all through last season.

But I have to be honest, we didn't really know what to call it. We talked about a lot of things that were happening during Covid, a lot of change that was happening. And now that I've talked to you a couple of times, I'm realizing that some of the problems that we're seeing out there were related to trust too. And I wish I had had you on last season because you probably would have been able to put some more things into perspective for us all and set us on the right path.

So, I'm really happy that we got there now. You know, I'm thinking about these issues and I'm wondering, okay, so we can assess where it is, but how do we start to address it internally? How do we start to think about it from a how do we train people on this or what is the course of action to some degree? And I realize that there's probably so much more in the book that people need to read, but just to give them a sense of is there hope?

What can we do? Is there something that they can do to start to instill that back into the organization to the employees and externally to their customers to? I'll give you two ideas. One is notice that trust is the root issue and define it against the eight pillars, so create a common language in your company so that everybody on their desk, many of the organizations were quickly have the eight. They're like, oh I see, yeah, quit calling that a communication issue. That's a clarity or compassion or whatever issue.

And finally use the trust tools to solve these issues and we have many now, we're not going to cover them all this time, I'm going to give you one really crystal clear important one. That is the way I lost £52. 5 months and the way people have used it to triple sales in 90 days. So there's a multitude of tools in the book and in all of our deeper work that would be happy to obviously help with and all that O. D. C. Method, the spa method of encourage creating an encouraging organization, all these things and I'm happy to give as many as we get to today.

But here's one that I think can be game changing. We've talked a lot about the clarity pillar but let's give an idea you can use or I can use or maybe a couple ideas. One idea is this the most overlooked under used question that actually drives strategic clarity that takes an idea to an action is not what people think. Many people spend a lot of time on the Y and I agree with cynic the why it's important. You don't have purpose, you don't last 10 days on a project.

It's good to have a good purpose. But we see people singing about their why Kumbaya right off the cliff, They're having fun. They got a great Y but it's not everything. You got other people with Collins saying get the right who's on the bus? And that's a good thing to, but there's a lot of great companies with a lot of great who's still not doing the right things. So you have the wind, you have the whose get those, those are important. I validate them. But there's actually three questions that actually take an idea to an action.

These are the questions that actually drive strategic clarity and I'll give life to them after I share them quickly. # one is How # two is way more important. It is how? And the third question most important question of all is how, Okay, so ladies and gentlemen, you have to get good at this, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how and I'll tell you what I mean, not abrasively not. How are you going to do that? But if you want to have a culture of clarity, you have to ask how.

So I'll come back to the eight pillars and what you can do about it right away. But let's think of an organization, second biggest healthcare organization, North America. We've done all this trust work. I said to the COO 10 years ago, what do you actually want to change here? He said we need a better culture. Were dying. I said, great, how are you going to start to do that? He said, well, I think we'll start with clarity. That's where you started said, great, how are you going to be more clear?

He said, we're going to communicate more. Am I going to trust him? Not for a second. I said, how are you going to communicate more? He said, we're going to hold each other accountable. Still not actionable. He doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm not putting him down. I'm just saying we have people that have accountability is a value that you see and they don't know what it means. How do you hold people accountable here? So I asked how seven more times he came to something he could do today or tomorrow.

I've done this with global governments with Procter and gamble with Walmart. I mean the biggest companies in the world that have 59 goals in 74 rocks can always get to a how they can act on today or tomorrow. And most people stop too early. They'll have meetings where they don't get to a final how and a final how always includes the who went and where. So if I'm going to work out more and I don't know, it's 5 30 in the morning, I'm not going to do it. If I have a choice, I mean they're going to go to the gym or I'm going to run outside the door.

If I have a choice at 5 30 I will do neither On teams. If you do this, how methodology, which we call 90-day quick plans. If you get to the full of it is you've got to have a final who. The research shows. If you have more than one person on a final task, you have 50% less chance of it getting done. Has to have a final who. So, your final how has a final Who, When and where. So, on the workout stuff. People say this all the time, right?

I knew I had to lose the weight for a lot of reasons. I had plenty of a Y but I never did anything because I didn't have hope. Why didn't have a hope? I don't have hope because I didn't have a how I could apply. If people said you can never have ice cream again, I'm just not going to do that. You got to pick how you will do. So, I asked people around the world get on planes 200 times like me a year and they do all this stuff.

And I said how do you stay so fit on the road? And they said the same thing. Eat less exercise more. That was not clear enough. So, I had asked, but how, how until I came up with the house, I could do starting today or tomorrow. And one of them as an example was, I started having all these cokes on a plane to coaxes a meal, bad calories, you get on a plane with me now. You never see me order a drink with a calorie. Almost never with a calorie, certainly not soda with a calorie.

So it was of how that I could do and that's the key is I'm going to sell more. Are going to do that. I'm going to make more calls. You're not. How are you going to make more calls? I'm going to get a list. How you going to get a list. I'm going to do this until they can tell me something they're going to do by today or tomorrow. We don't have a final how, but when we do, wow, we have hope that leads to action. It just makes sense. That exercise is something that I think anybody can put into play and it's not just on the trust, but they could use that in anything.

So, to follow it with trust because we want to tie this together a little bit if you didn't have my assessments or anything and you just sit down at your desk or a coffee shop or the living room and you put those eight down. I mean, I'd love to get a lot more of the tools in people's hands obviously. But let's just say you just have those eight now, just sit there for a second and think, okay, in my organization or in my big problem, what am I doing well circle that I'm compassionate, I'm committed.

I got good character. Can now pick one pillow and think, okay, what one if we had a little more of that with my audience with my sales people with one group, with you know, my leadership team boy. If we had more connection that would help with my leadership team boy with my clients. If I had more consistency, I bet they trust me and buy more. If they had more, whatever it is, pick one, just one and all you have to do. I'm not saying this is simple or making light of it.

I'm not perfect in any of the stuff I teach. I just know it's true from the research. I'm just saying now take that one thing with that one audience, let's say consistency with clients and say, okay, how could we be more consistent with the clients? Okay, yeah, I got this. Then. How am I going to do that, then? How am I going to do that then? How am I going to do that until you can do something today or tomorrow? So, I mean, people say I want a better culture. Okay.

What I'm going to do, I'm going to be nice. They're not going to do anything. How you going to do that? I'm going to appreciate people more. Okay, how you going to do that until someone tells me they're going to write a note every day for the next 90 days? I do not trust them. How, how, how, how, how on any of the pillars? And that's a great place to start because you can get to something that you can do against these eight that we know make a difference. As far as trust is concerned. Perfect.

Well, David, we could go on for another hour, I'm sure. But we're coming up on time. So, I want to make sure that I give people ways that they can get your book and get more familiar with what you have done. So, I know they can get your book on amazon. The trusted leader book dot com. Trust Edge dot com is where you find everything from the institute. Trust Edge dot com as the research and all that stuff. If your people would like a demo on using measurement using platform free, totally complimentary trust Edge coaching dot com and you'll find a free demo spot.

So, trust edge coaching dot com and it's really powerful. You know, I can go on about it, but we have the biggest coaching company in the world. Say we created the biggest group; you guys have created the best platform. So, you should take a look at it for the fun of it. But otherwise just plain Trust Edge dot com, you can go everywhere or my name. If you can spell it, you can see my keynotes and everything else. Perfect. And we'll put all that stuff in the show notes so people will be able to just click the links and get there.

So, David, I have to thank you because this has been enlightening for me. I've learned so much and I'm sure our audience has also thank you for joining us today. Thank you, Steve. Thanks for the invitation and all you're doing to change the world. Thanks. Well, that's another episode of the Science of c x. I'm Steve Pappas, your host and until we meet next time, please stay safe. Stay healthy and do take care. Bye everyone.